This can be a rush transcript. Copy will not be in its remaining type.
AMY GOODMAN: On this particular broadcast, we start with Reed Brody, the worldwide human rights lawyer who’s been referred to as the “dictator hunter” for his function in bringing historic authorized circumstances towards former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet and others. Reed Brody has simply written a ebook. It’s referred to as To Catch a Dictator: The Pursuit and Trial of Hissène Habré.
Habré is a former U.S. ally who’s been described as Africa’s Pinochet. He served as president of Chad from 1982 to 1990 and oversaw widespread human rights abuses. The Chadian Fact Fee accused his authorities of systematic torture and being concerned in as many as 40,000 deaths. Below President Ronald Reagan, the CIA helped Habré take energy in 1982, and he remained a U.S. ally, even visiting Reagan within the White Home.
Hissène Habré fled Chad in 1990 following a coup. He might have gotten away together with his crimes, had it not been for a bunch of torture and rape survivors who joined with human rights activists and legal professionals to spend many years bringing him to justice. The architects of the case have been the victims themselves. That is Souleymane Guengueng talking in a Human Rights Watch video that additionally options his testimony.
SOULEYMANE GUENGUENG: [translated] Throughout two years and a half in jail, I noticed my mates, my fellow inmates, die from starvation, die from despair, die from torture, and die from ailments. From the depths of my cell, I swore to God to struggle for justice, if I obtained out alive.
AMY GOODMAN: Twenty-five years after Chadian dictator Hissène Habré was overthrown and fled to Senegal, he was convicted in 2016 by the Extraordinary African Chambers within the Senegalese court docket system and sentenced to life in jail. A decide learn the decision.
JUDGE GBERDAO GUSTAVE KAM: [translated] Hissène Habré, the court docket finds you responsible below Article 10(2) of the statute of crimes towards humanity, together with rape, compelled slavery, voluntary murder, the widespread and systematic apply of abstract executions, enforced disappearances, torture and inhumane acts, topic to Articles 6(a), (b), (f) and (g) of the statute. Consequently, Hissène Habré, the court docket sentences you to life in jail.
AMY GOODMAN: The cheering you hear is Chadian victims of Hissène Habré within the courtroom.
For extra, Democracy Now!‘s Nermeen Shaikh and I just lately spoke to Reed Brody, the worldwide lawyer who labored with Hissène Habré’s victims to win a responsible verdict. Brody is previously with Human Rights Watch. His ebook is simply out, To Catch a Dictator: The Pursuit and Trial of Hissène Habré. I started by asking him to speak about how the trial came about.
REED BRODY: Properly, this trial, as you say, Amy, was the results of many years of organizing by the victims, by their allies. Souleymane, I imply, I get chills after I take heed to that discuss that he gave to the decide. When Souleymane — as folks round him have been dying in his jail, and he took an oath that if he ever obtained out, he would struggle for justice. And when he obtained out, he was a strolling skeleton, however he used all his charisma to provoke the victims.
Hissène Habré had fled to Senegal, the place he appeared out of the attain of justice. And it was truly the Pinochet case, the arrest in London in 1998 of Augusto Pinochet of Chile on a warrant from a Spanish decide for crimes dedicated in Chile. And I went to London to work on that case, and I spent the higher a part of six months in London. And when the Home of Lords stated that Pinochet didn’t have immunity, that he may very well be prosecuted anyplace on this planet regardless of his standing as a former head of state, we knew, we realized we had a device in worldwide justice to deliver to ebook individuals who appeared out of the attain of justice.
And we have been approached by one in all Souleymane’s colleagues, an activist from Chad named Delphine Djiraibe, who stated, “We’ve got anyone. We’ve got anyone who’s dedicated worse crimes than Pinochet, and he now lives in Senegal.” And what actually me about that case was that he was in Senegal, that this may not be, if we may make it occur, a case of a First World nation prosecuting the top of one in all its former colonies, however one African nation pursuing for human rights crimes a dictator of one other African nation.
And we started to research. We met — I met, I imply, Souleymane, an incredible, superb man. And we helped them file a case in Senegal. And in 2000, we introduced the Chadian victims to Senegal. A Senegalese decide truly arrested him in 2000.
However it might take one other 16 years of ups and downs, of preventing, of 1 step ahead, two steps again, earlier than we truly obtained to the trial in Senegal. And people have been years of organizing by the victims. These have been years of Souleymane and his comrades and me and others going all world wide.
When Senegal refused to prosecute Habré, we filed the case in Belgium, which then had a long-arm common jurisdiction regulation. A Belgian decide started to research the case. Then, as so typically occurs, the Belgian regulation, which was nice when it was working to prosecute Rwandans and different Third World international locations, when circumstances have been filed in Belgium towards first Ariel Sharon after which the George Bush father, Donald Rumsfeld got here to Belgium and stated, “Belgium, if NATO leaders can’t journey to Belgium with out worrying about arrest, then possibly we’ll have to maneuver NATO.” And the Belgian regulation then, on which this case hung, obtained repealed.
However Souleymane — we introduced Souleymane to Belgium, and he regarded policymakers within the eyes, the minister of justice, the prime minister, leaders, and stated, “You possibly can’t do that.” And he tells his story, the identical story he informed in court docket in regards to the oath. And folks stated, “No, no, Mr. Guengueng. We’ll discover a option to hold this case going.”
Belgium spends 4 years investigating the case, seeks his extradition from Senegal. Senegal refuses the extradition, turns to the African Union. The African Union then says, “Senegal, you will have a accountability to prosecute.” The African Union was very thinking about Senegal doing one thing, as a result of the African Union felt picked on by the Worldwide Felony Courtroom. We will speak about that maybe later.
In the end, Belgium took Senegal to the Worldwide Courtroom of Justice, the World Courtroom, which ordered Senegal to prosecute Hissène Habré with out additional delay, if it didn’t extradite him. A brand new president was elected in Senegal, Macky Sall, who we had cultivated over time. I imply, throughout these 15 years within the desert, the Chadian victims have been all around the world constructing alliances with folks, notably in Senegal, so to create the political situations, lastly, for this trial to occur. And it was a exceptional trial.
AMY GOODMAN: I wish to go to extra of the individuals who testified on this trial and who organized the victims. These are two ladies who joined the human rights case towards Habré, talking in a Human Rights Watch video that additionally options their testimony. One testified she was raped personally by Habré.
KHADIDJA HASSAN ZIDANE: [translated] They slept with us, with out our consent. With out our consent.
JUDGE GBERDAO GUSTAVE KAM: [translated] And who did it?
KHADIDJA HASSAN ZIDANE: [translated] The primary evening, the president himself was amongst them.
JUDGE GBERDAO GUSTAVE KAM: [translated] Which president?
KHADIDJA HASSAN ZIDANE: [translated] Hissène Habré. There was no person however Hissène Habré.
JUDGE GBERDAO GUSTAVE KAM: [translated] Together with the president himself? He was amongst them?
KALTOUMA DEFALLAH: [translated] Throughout our keep at Ouadi Doum navy camp, we didn’t obtain any medical care. We didn’t get correct meals. They simply introduced us as sexual slaves. We got medicines. We realized afterwards that it was for us to not get pregnant.
JACQUELINE MOUDEINA: [translated] What’s most essential about this deposition is to have the story identified and to prosecute this crime, in order that different ladies don’t change into victims of it. As a result of we communicate little or no about rape in Chad.
KALTOUMA DEFALLAH: [translated] The truth that I went there, noticed everyone, and I noticed Hissène Habré sitting there, that gave me the energy to talk and to launch what was inside me. So, for me, I don’t maintain onto that hate. It’s over. I had a wound inside, however I let it go.
AMY GOODMAN: That final individual was Kaltouma Defallah, and, earlier than that, Khadidja Hassan — they have been each testifying — after which an interview with Jacqueline Moudeina, who’s the one that writes the introduction to your ebook, To Catch a Dictator, Reed. I imply, the emotional energy of those ladies talking, after which Jacqueline’s function in bringing Hissène Habré to justice, in case you may take it from there?
REED BRODY: Properly, these three ladies are absolute heroes. I imply, Jacqueline was the lawyer for the — continues to be the lawyer for the victims. She survived a grenade assault, allegedly by one in all Habré’s accomplices, who she was additionally suing again in Chad. She has shrapnel. And she or he testified. I imply, she introduced the case and pleaded the case on behalf of the victims, with shrapnel nonetheless in her leg from that assassination try.
Kaltouma and Khadidja, who I’ve identified for 20 years, took this amazingly brave step, going from Chad to Senegal, sitting earlier than these — on this courtroom with all of the lights, speaking about what occurred to them. The explanation they did that, the rationale they have been in a position to break their silence, was as a result of they felt a part of the staff. They have been a part of the trouble to deliver Habré to justice. And so they had confidence in Jacqueline. It was not a disembodied second for them. They have been a part of this lengthy battle.
And the bombshell of the trial was the truth that Habré had used ladies as sexual slaves. And we even have the paperwork of his political police that present that these ladies have been despatched to a desert camp to be — the paperwork don’t say why, nevertheless it was clear that they have been there to serve Habré’s military. Khadidja testified that she was personally raped on 4 events by Hissène Habré. I imply, this testimony proved to be probably the most dramatic a part of the trial. And it was the primary time a dictator was convicted of personally having raped somebody. And it was a serious advance that might not have occurred if it weren’t for Jacqueline Moudeina, their lawyer, and for the truth that these ladies felt supported and felt that they have been a part of the trouble of bringing Habré to justice.
AMY GOODMAN: Reed, you talked about the discovering of the paperwork, which ended up being the documentary proof that was introduced within the court docket in Senegal. Speak about how these paperwork have been discovered.
REED BRODY: Properly, this was actually a stroke of luck. We have been visiting the advanced of the political police, first the dungeon, the place a whole lot of prisoners died, and subsequent to the dungeon, the headquarters of the previous political police. And there we discovered, on the bottom, paperwork have been nonetheless there, strewn over a number of rooms, tens of 1000’s of paperwork, spying stories, lists of — day by day lists of prisoners, paperwork, a whole lot of paperwork, 1000’s of paperwork that have been despatched to Hissène Habré. Once we interviewed a prisoner, we knew what day they have been arrested, once they have been transferred from one place to a different. There have been paperwork there with Habré’s handwriting on them, by which he truly ordered that struggle criminals — that prisoners of struggle not be given hospital therapy, by which he was given data — Hissène Habré — on over 1,000 detainees in his jail. So, this turned the documentary background of the case. And actually, each time a witness would testify at trial, we have been in a position to produce the doc that confirmed, sure, he was in jail from this date to this date.
We discovered, you realize, unbelievable tales of bravery in these. I imply, a lady who smuggled out details about torture in jail and who was executed, and who many prisoners had informed us about, we have been capable of finding the interrogation report when she was discovered. And she or he was confronted by her torturers and stated — and she or he stated, “I might do that once more, it doesn’t matter what you do to me, even when I die in jail. I’m doing it for my nation, and Chad will discuss me.” And 15 years later, I — Rose Lokissim — I discover this doc. It’s like a observe in a bottle. And I really feel like we’ve got to speak about Rose Lokissim. And we truly made a documentary. My companion, Isabel Coixet, made a documentary referred to as Speaking About Rose, primarily based on these paperwork and what Rose informed her torturers the day that she was executed.
AMY GOODMAN: Reed Brody, the acclaimed worldwide human rights legal professional, writer of the brand new ebook, To Catch a Dictator: The Pursuit and Trial of Hissène Habré. We’ll be again with him after this.
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AMY GOODMAN: That is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The Conflict and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh, as we return to our interview with the worldwide human rights legal professional Reed Brody, writer of To Catch a Dictator: The Pursuit and Trial of Hissène Habré.
AMY GOODMAN: Reed, we’ve got an excerpt of Parler de Rose, Speaking About Rose, which is narrated by the Oscar-winning actress Juliette Binoche, in regards to the life and dying of Rose Lokissim, that prisoner of Hissène Habré, the previous dictator of Chad, executed, as you say, partly as a result of she took these intensive notes to doc the abuse she and different prisoners suffered to inform their households.
GINETTE NGARBAYE: [translated] Rose took the packets and wrote the whole lot she noticed in jail. “They take you away at 11 a.m., or 8 p.m., or 1:00 within the morning.” Irrespective of in case you have been Muslim or Christian, she wrote down the whole lot. And in case you died, she famous all of it down. I regarded, however she didn’t need anyone to see.
SARAH NDONA: [translated] She wrote folks’s names, who was in cost, who was tortured, who was killed. She obtained their names to present to their relations.
ASHTA MAHAMAD ALI MONIQUE: [translated] After our launch, they discovered Rose had written such-and-such.
FATIME SAKINE HAMADI: [translated] When she wrote, she would cover. She didn’t need anybody to see what she wrote. She would cover off to the aspect. She did her writing.
DOHKOT CLÉMENT ABAIFOUTA: [translated] Each time there was a dying or some mistreatment, you sensed the look of rebel in her face.
ALEÏNA N’GOUSSI JACKSON: [translated] She famous down the title of each prisoner who died, with the dates, so she may notify the relations.
JULIETTE BINOCHE: [translated] Rose was betrayed, and DDS brokers got here to take her away. Within the report of Rose’s final interrogation, discovered 15 years later among the many DDS information, her captors wrote that Rose was “irredeemable and continues to undermine the safety of the state, even in jail.” They really helpful that “the authorities punish her severely.” Rose was executed the identical day.
AMY GOODMAN: Once more, an excerpt from the movie Parler de Rose, Speaking About Rose, narrated by the actress Juliette Binoche, in regards to the life and dying of Rose Lokissim, a prisoner of Hissène Habré. Completely devastating. That movie directed by the well-known Spanish director Isabel Coixet, the companion of our visitor immediately, Reed Brody, who has simply printed his ebook, To Catch a Dictator. Earlier than we go on to these bigger points, Reed, of worldwide justice and maybe how this can be utilized as a mannequin, what about those that weren’t within the courtroom subsequent to Hissène Habré, who you may see all through, and that’s the international locations France and the US, and their assist for Hissène Habré?
REED BRODY: Properly, in fact, Hissène Habré was dropped at energy by the US, by Ronald Reagan. The primary covert operation of the Ronald Reagan period, earlier than Jonas Savimbi in Angola, earlier than the Contras in Nicaragua, was bringing Hissène Habré to energy as a bulwark towards Muammar Gaddafi, who was occupying northern Chad. And the U.S. ignored the truth that he had already had an extended document of atrocities as a insurgent chief, as an interim prime minister. And the U.S. funneled arms to Hissène Habré in a covert operation, helped him take energy. After which the U.S. and France supported Habré all through his eight years as a bulwark towards Gaddafi, the identical method, frankly, that the U.S. and France and the West are supporting the present dictatorship of Chad as an island of stability in a area now dominated by ISIS and by jihadists and with a whole lot of instability in Sudan, in northern Nigeria, in Cameroon.
However we see how shortsighted that is. We discovered within the paperwork details about coaching programs within the U.S. that a lot of Habré’s political police took, together with individuals who have been later recognized by the reality fee because the worst torturers in Chad. We all know that the U.S. had an adviser to Hissène Habré’s political police, these identical political police that had created this dungeon that put Souleymane in jail, that was sending all these paperwork to Hissène Habré. And, you realize, sadly, I don’t assume that the U.S. or France has realized the lesson of supporting a dictator like Hissène Habré.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Reed, let’s go to the worldwide broader implications of this case of Hissène Habré. To start with, when the decide learn out the convictions, he was citing an article. Clarify what structure he was referring to. The trial came about, in fact, in Senegal. What was the doc to which he referred? And this concept which you talked about earlier, as properly, of common jurisdiction, the road, you stated, from the case of Pinochet to Hissène Habré, in case you may elaborate on that? Clarify how folks accused of struggle crimes could be tried in international locations aside from their nation of residence or nationality.
REED BRODY: Positive. This trial initially was primarily based on the thought of common jurisdiction. I imply, Pinochet was arrested in London. The U.Ok. — on a Spanish warrant. Each the U.Ok. and Spain had jurisdiction over him as a result of the crimes he dedicated, like torture, have been crimes of common jurisdiction, which means that any court docket on this planet, if they’ve custody over the defendant, can prosecute these crimes. And the trial in Senegal was earlier than a court docket within the Senegalese judicial system created with the assist of the African Union.
And we’re seeing immediately world wide increasingly more — a whole lot, truly, of crimes — of trials of common jurisdiction. Habré is the one one — the one head of state to be prosecuted earlier than the courts of one other nation, however just lately we noticed France prosecute Liberian warlords. We noticed Germany prosecute Syrian intelligence officers. Increasingly more international locations are utilizing common jurisdiction to prosecute crimes dedicated. For the second, it’s largely European international locations, which have — a lot of them have arrange particular items, struggle crimes items, who prosecute typically individuals who are available as asylum seekers. However we’re seeing increasingly more international locations undertake common jurisdiction. We’re seeing an enormous quantity of justice world wide.
And we’re seeing, in truth, the creation of what may very well be referred to as a brand new ecosystem of worldwide justice. I imply, you will have the Worldwide Felony Courtroom on the prime, the Worldwide Felony Courtroom which prosecutes circumstances of genocide, crimes towards humanity, struggle crimes, when nationwide courts are unwilling or unable to take action. In 20 years, and at a value of $2 billion, the Worldwide Felony Courtroom has truly by no means sustained the atrocity conviction of any state official at any stage anyplace on this planet. It’s fairly, truly, superb. However the truth that the court docket exists has had a big impact on the world. It’s first as a result of it expresses this worldwide dedication, so-called, in favor of justice, additionally as a result of a lot of its provisions have been transposed into regulation in different international locations — the articles the decide learn out have been articles that have been transposed into the articles of the court docket in Senegal from the ICC — and likewise as a result of the ICC truly places a whole lot of stress on international locations to maneuver ahead, or threat their officers being prosecuted on the ICC.
And one of many causes that the Habré case came about, was in a position to go ahead, was as a result of the African Union was feeling picked on, because it was, by the Worldwide Felony Courtroom. The primary 29 indictments of the Worldwide Felony Courtroom have been all Africans. And the African Union needed to indicate that Africa was able to prosecuting these sorts of crimes, and so it invested on this court docket in Senegal.
However we’re seeing, whether or not it’s nationwide courts — we noticed just lately in Guinea the prosecution of Dadis Camara for a stadium bloodbath in 2008. We noticed in Peru, Fujimori; in Guatemala, Ríos Montt. We’re seeing world wide an enormous quantity of justice that’s taking place, not on the Worldwide Felony Courtroom essentially, however what’s attention-grabbing is that the entire circumstances I simply described are circumstances which, just like the Habré case, have been victim-driven circumstances. These will not be top-down circumstances. These are circumstances by which victims and their allies have organized, have fought for 10, 20 years to create the political situations, to do the documentation, typically handy to judges on a silver platter the documentation, and struggle to create these political situations for these trials to occur.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Reed, you talked about earlier that one of many international locations that has invoked common jurisdiction to prosecute struggle crimes was Germany within the case of the conviction of the Syrian intelligence official, whom you cited, for overseeing the torture of prisoners on the infamous al-Khatib jail in Damascus. This was reportedly the primary trial to focus on a authorities that’s nonetheless in energy. He’s an official within the Assad authorities. So, in case you may discuss in regards to the significance of that, and likewise how victims are to deliver these circumstances? Is it as a result of there have been Syrian victims of the Assad regime, of this specific individual, who have been residing in Germany, and due to this fact they have been in a position to invoke common jurisdiction? Or can victims anyplace on this planet deliver circumstances towards, you realize, a struggle prison, wherever she or he could also be from?
REED BRODY: Properly, on this case, in fact, I imply, you will have large crimes being dedicated in Syria. The ICC is minimize off as a potential route, as a result of Syria has not ratified the ICC treaty. And the Safety Council can’t refer Syria, due to — clearly, due to a Russia and/or Chinese language veto. However you do have, to start with, a — the U.N. created this worldwide investigative mechanism on Syria, a type of a bunch of prosecutors who’re placing collectively circumstances, along with which you will have NGOs just like the Heart for Worldwide Justice and Accountability which have specialised in bringing out regime paperwork, large variety of paperwork. You could have a former photographer of one of many torture facilities, so-called Caesar, taking photos of victims. And this mechanism then distributes circumstances that it’s creating to nationwide courts.
And so, the case in Syria, which was primarily based on the truth that these defendants have been in Europe — I imagine that two of them have been in Germany, and two of them have been in — one in all them was in France, however I may very well be unsuitable. It was primarily based on the truth that these folks, that Germany had opened — that its struggle crimes unit had opened what’s referred to as a structural investigation of the scenario in Syria, in order that each time a Syrian suspect was inside its attain, a case may very well be triggered. And so, all of those funneled into the circumstances in Germany to the essential conviction earlier this 12 months in Koblenz of two high-ranking Syrian intelligence officers.
Now, every nation has its personal threshold, and every nation has its personal necessities. In lots of circumstances, as within the case that we introduced, the Habré case, each Senegal and Belgium enable victims to go on to court docket to file a prison criticism. Most typical regulation international locations — the U.S., as an example — you may’t try this. And so — and plenty of international locations additionally put in political filters. So, earlier, along with Michael Ratner and Wolfgang Kaleck of the European Heart for Constitutional and Human Rights, we had filed a case in Germany — two circumstances — towards Donald Rumsfeld and Bush administration officers for alleged torture and waterboarding and crimes dedicated towards Muslim detainees within the struggle on terror. The primary time it went to the German courts, it was dismissed, as a result of they stated the U.S. was investigating. Then, when it turned clear that the U.S. wasn’t investigating, they stated that the probabilities of success — they threw it out as a result of the probabilities of placing the case collectively weren’t ample.
So, we do — I imply, sadly, all through this infrastructure of worldwide justice, we see double requirements. You recognize, we see it each — I talked about how the Belgian regulation on common jurisdiction crumbled when it was filed towards the U.S. The identical factor occurred in Spain, which had prosecuted criminals from El Salvador and Argentina. However when circumstances in Spain have been filed towards China for Tibet, towards Israel, towards the US, that regulation additionally was considerably decreased. In the UK, legal guidelines that allowed victims to go on to court docket to invoke common jurisdiction have been additionally curtailed after circumstances have been introduced, or tried to be introduced, towards alleged Israeli struggle criminals. So, we’re seeing a whole lot of justice, however we’re additionally seeing a whole lot of double requirements.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Reed, additionally now, given the current struggle in Ukraine, the place there’s most likely an unprecedented variety of paperwork that display struggle crimes by the Russians in Ukraine, however, in fact, Russia, just like the U.S., Israel, and so forth., is a really highly effective nation, so what do you assume the prospects are for Russian officers being held accountable in any one in all these courts? And in addition, the connection between the courts, hybrid courts, the place Hissène Habré was tried, and a world prison tribunal, just like the one, as an example, that was arrange in Yugoslavia — on Yugoslavia?
REED BRODY: Properly, in fact, what we’re seeing in Ukraine, I imply, the bare Russian aggression, the huge struggle crimes, have provoked an unprecedented justice response. You recognize, not solely are Ukrainians, that are so admirably placing down what they’re doing, documenting struggle crimes, the ICC has opened up its largest workplace ever in Kyiv. Dozens of nations have open circumstances below common jurisdiction or are sending technical specialists. We’re seeing the type of response to this atrocity that human rights activists wish to see as a response to all atrocities. It’s heartwarming.
It’s going, actually, to steer, I might assume, to some prosecutions. I imply, the Ukrainians are capturing Russians on a regular basis. They’ve already began to prosecute some very low-level folks. The query, in fact, is how far up they’ll go, and, in fact, how — whether or not they may truly seize any high-ranking Russian officers.
What’s unlucky, although, is that we additionally see once more the double requirements. I imply, the prosecutor of the Worldwide Felony Courtroom, who rightly ran to Ukraine, who rightly talks about Ukraine as a criminal offense scene, who talks about how the regulation can’t stay silent, he has additionally an open investigation on Palestine, on which he’s not, at the very least visibly, doing something. I talked to Raji Sourani, who’s been in your present many instances, the opposite day, and he stated the prosecutor just isn’t doing something. The prosecutor has an workplace in — has an investigation open in Afghanistan. But final 12 months the prosecutor introduced that he was deprioritizing the a part of his investigation that pertains to potential American and allied struggle crimes in Afghanistan, as a result of he doesn’t have the sources. And but the sources are flowing in for Ukraine, which is accurately. It’s simply that there are a whole lot of different locations on this planet that want this type of justice.
AMY GOODMAN: Properly, we see what occurred to the ICC, the Worldwide Felony Courtroom, prosecutor Fatou Bensouda earlier than the present prosecutor, Karim Khan, who’s been going backwards and forwards to Ukraine. Within the case of the Gambian Fatou Bensouda, who was previously the chief prosecutor of the court docket, Trump designated her as a specifically designated nationwide, forbidding all U.S. folks and corporations from doing enterprise together with her. Now, it’s true the Biden administration reversed that designation final 12 months, eradicating her from that listing, however Secretary of State Antony Blinken launched an announcement saying, whereas that was inappropriate and ineffective, they’d not assist the investigation of Afghanistan or what’s occurred within the Palestinian territories, the Occupied Territories. So, how highly effective — I imply, and likewise Israel, Russia and the US will not be signatories to the ICC. Is it these highly effective international locations, even nonsignatories, that decide what the ICC does, and, extra importantly, what they don’t examine?
REED BRODY: Properly, these are actually, you realize, essential components. I imply, the U.S. objects — below Democrats, the U.S. has type of a great neighbor coverage with the ICC. It helps, you realize, in some ways, ICC investigations. Satirically, the — I imply, the primary objection the U.S. has ideologically or legally to the ICC is that the ICC has jurisdiction over Americans in the event that they commit crimes in international locations which have ratified the ICC. So, an American who commits a struggle crime in Afghanistan is topic to the jurisdiction of the ICC. That drives Washington loopy. Washington says, “We haven’t ratified the ICC statute, due to this fact you don’t have jurisdiction.”
Now, however in case you take a look at the reverse, that’s precisely what’s taking place in Ukraine. Russians are alleged — Russia, which has not ratified the ICC treaty — Russian nationals are alleged to have dedicated struggle crimes in Ukraine. And so, the U.S. actually is tiptoeing round this line about how they really feel in regards to the ICC investigation. Clearly, the U.S. helps bringing Russian struggle criminals to justice, however it might probably’t truly say that it helps the ICC doing it, as a result of that might go towards the U.S.’s basic authorized objection to the ICC.
However I do see this — I imply, I spend a whole lot of time in Africa, as you realize, and Africans take a look at this as very one-sided. India even spoke on the Safety Council in regards to the Ukraine investigation, stated, “Look, we want objectivity. You possibly can’t simply be investigating the crimes of sure international locations.” And so they all cite this deprioritization of the crimes in Afghanistan, the shortage of motion on any investigation into the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and likewise when British — there have been circumstances — as a result of Britain has ratified the ICC treaty. There was a case towards British officers for torture in Iraq. The ICC closed that investigation, saying that Britain was adequately investigating them, regardless that 1000’s of circumstances had gone to British adjudication and there was not one conviction.
So, we’re, sadly, seeing a double commonplace primarily based on political energy in any respect ranges. And that’s, once more, why it’s so essential to have these circumstances, just like the Hissène Habré case, just like the case we noticed this week in France, just like the Ríos Montt case, the place it’s victims who’re organizing to deliver justice to their international locations.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Reed, earlier than we finish, simply to speak particularly about this situation of hybrid courts, the courts that have been used to strive Hissène Habré, as towards worldwide prison tribunals, just like the one which was arrange in Yugoslavia the place, famously, the Bosnian-Croat struggle prison Slobodan Praljak died after taking potassium cyanide in The Hague courtroom as soon as he was sentenced to twenty years for struggle crimes in Bosnia. So, speak about this, the hybrid courts versus worldwide prison tribunals.
REED BRODY: Properly, one of many foremost variations at this level is price. I imply, the price of the Yugoslav court docket, which was very profitable, I imply, tried over 70 — convicted over 70 folks. The Worldwide Felony Courtroom, as I discussed, price $2 billion. The Rwanda court docket, the Yugoslavia court docket price a billion {dollars} every. The Hissène Habré court docket price $10 million.
We’re seeing increasingly more the artifice of hybridization, which is {that a} nation — now that is taking place in Gambia, the place I at the moment work with Gambian authorities and Gambian victims. The previous dictator of Gambia, Yahya Jammeh, lives in exile in Equatorial Guinea. And Gambia has simply introduced that it needs to deliver him again, however to do it earlier than a hybrid court docket, a hybrid court docket that might give it the — a hybrid court docket, along with ECOWAS, the group of West African states, that might give it a political energy to get an extradition, that might enable it to carry trials exterior of the Gambia.
Mainly, what we’ve got realized is that completely different — you want completely different options for various conditions. And by making a — upon getting jurisdiction, upon getting authorized jurisdiction over a defendant, you may actually create the type of a court docket that’s tailored to a scenario. So, on this case, within the Habré case, Senegal and the African Union created a court docket inside the Senegalese authorized system however that had many options, like using worldwide regulation, using tv, using authorized ideas like command accountability, the total backing of the African Union, {that a} Senegalese court docket wouldn’t have had.
Within the Gambia, what Gambia saying is, “We’re too small. We don’t have the sources. Our authorized system just isn’t tailored. We additionally imagine that bringing Jammeh again to Gambia to prosecute him — to detain him and prosecute him right here may be destabilizing. Let’s usher in your complete area. We will maintain among the trials, just like the trial of Yahya Jammeh, in Ghana, let’s say.”
Similar factor occurred in Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone’s Particular Courtroom was a hybrid court docket between Sierra Leone and the United Nations. It prosecuted, I imagine, 9 folks. Certainly one of them was Charles Taylor. Folks felt it might be too harmful to have Charles Taylor tried on the bottom, so he was tried in The Hague. The optics of doing it in The Hague weren’t the most effective, as a result of, once more, it regarded prefer it was white individual’s justice.
However we’re studying in scenario after scenario. There’s a hybrid court docket in Central African Republic now, which only recently handed down its first convictions. I imply, there are literally some two dozen hybrid courts now utilizing this precept, that are delivering justice at a near native stage and at a a lot lesser price.
AMY GOODMAN: Lastly, on reparations for the folks of Chad, sure, Hissène Habré, who died final 12 months, was imprisoned for all times, after their extremely brave testimony. However in the case of reparations, Reed, are you able to speak about what the African Union, what the Chadian authorities, what the victims obtained along with the justice of imprisoning the person who had murdered or mutilated or had them damage not directly?
REED BRODY: Properly, in fact, for victims, justice means many issues, not simply placing the unhealthy man in jail. It means authorized reform. It means ensures that this gained’t occur once more. However for victims, particularly these very poor victims, it additionally means reparations. And so they have been preventing for the reason that very starting for reparations. And so they’ve been preventing — the Chadian authorities owes them reparations as a normal precept. In case you are tortured by a authorities, that authorities owes you reparations.
Each the court docket that sentenced Hissène Habré, in addition to a Chadian court docket which sentenced 20 of Habré’s accomplices, in a trial that was additionally essential, additionally led by Jacqueline Moudeina, each sentenced — each ordered large reparations to the victims. And I’ve been preventing, along with the victims and with Jacqueline, for one more six years. And simply final week, or only a few weeks in the past, the federal government of Chad introduced that it was going to place into an African Union belief fund that had been created $15 million in reparations. The African Union has additionally put in $5 million, so $20 million in reparations. It’s a drop within the bucket. We calculate it comes out to about $2,700 per sufferer, which doesn’t almost cowl how their lives have been upended. However I can guarantee you that in Chad, it’s going to go a great distance if it truly will get to them, which, in fact, we’re hopeful that it does.
However reparations are an integral a part of justice. Folks typically neglect that it’s not nearly placing somebody in jail, as essential as that’s. It’s not nearly a lesson, as essential as that’s. It’s additionally about making victims complete — and notably these victims, who’re such heroes. I imply, the rationale the Habré case — the Habré trial may very well be performed for $10 million was as a result of the victims labored for 20 years to place the case collectively. They need to have been paid for that. I imply, as a part of our marketing campaign, they have been — I imply, we had victims on employees of the marketing campaign. However that is the type of justice that ought to be common.
AMY GOODMAN: Reed Brody, the acclaimed worldwide human rights legal professional, writer of the brand new ebook, To Catch a Dictator: The Pursuit and Trial of Hissène Habré.
Up subsequent, Ed Yong, the Pulitzer Prize-winning science author, on his ebook, An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Round Us. Stick with us.
